As the saying goes, the first victim in a war is the truth. With this in mind i'm trying to look at the “truth” that is being reported and discover ways of getting more accurate information. Specifically I have gone back and mined the headlines from the time of the attacks last year in the hopes that some news was published before the reporting stabilised into the same groove it seems to now be in. I have put all the images in a folder my website: rachelpersephone.com/hidden/otherstuff.html
True, but don't you think these attacks were a response to perceived U.S cultural Imperialism in the Middle East and elsewhere? That is certainly what the perpetrators claim. In their eyes they are defending themselves.
Latanaka, I really tire of the US self hating that is expressed in comments like yours. Iv'e always been pretty left leaning but i'm not prepared to lay down and say the attacks on NY and Washington were our own fault. That is simply not the case and to suggest that is totally offensive to me.
I'm sorry if I offended you, but firstly its not self hating because i'm not a US citizen and secondly, I don't hate the US, I just think its worth looking at these attacks in a broader context. Simply suggesting that “they” started it brings no insight and understanding into a complex situation. We should be looking into the history or US Arab relations: our support of dictators such as Mubarak, the Saudi Royalty and even Saddam up until recently, as well as our unconditional support of Israel, our exploitation and exacerbation of conflicts in that region such as selling arms to both Iran and Iraq during their war against each other.
Like all countries, the US plays a complex game of international politics, one that I don't always agree with, but one that has made us a respected world leader. With all due respect Latanaka, your justification is total bullshit. If Arabs don't like their leaders, they should attack them, not US!
As much as I would like to weight in on this argument, i'm also aware that this same discussion is being had around every lounge room, bar, cafe, water cooler and television as well as on thousands of sites and forums across the Internet. For the sake of our goals, can we put these differences aside and keep discussion to how to solve the Darkest Puzzle??
OK, I see what you are saying, but can we then keep our comments based on evidence and clues? Not on personal opinion. Keep it objective rather than subjective? Please?
I have to say I totally agree with Latanaka here. Furthermore, what do you mean keep it objective??? Terrorism is a subjective act. And all of the media and “clues” ARE subjective. There is no hard evidence – no truth, no objective reality. Thats what your own first post on this discussion was all about
Well, ok. But this again raises the issue again of where we should get out information from. If we cannot trust what the news media or politicians tell us – we have nothing to go on.
I watched the 9/11 film again this week to see if I could spot anything new. I figure being a doco and all. Those interviews with the firemen talking about “explosions” struck me.
I've been thinking about those firemen. I'm thinking about how they said it was explosions because they had no other way to explain it. No one does. Planes have never flown into building causing them to fall like that before. They are kind of only able to explain it in terms they already know.
I read a weird review on that film: http://www.jammersreviews.com/articles/tv/9-11.php
“Strange as it is to say, 9/11's story is structured a lot like conventional fictional disaster movies, making one sense that maybe there's a reason why the fiction films rarely deviate from that formula.”
Its goes on but it got me thinking, wasn't the whole of 9/11 structured like a disaster film??
I found an article by about this kind of thing just after the attacks. The author says that we need to get to a point where they don't say, this sort of thing shouldn’t happen here, to this sort of thing shouldnt happen anywhere. It kind of struck me as to how many times our country has bombed others. We have been in a perpetual war since Pearl Harbour. http://web.mit.edu/cms/reconstructions/interpretations/desertreal.html
I Just saw Michael Moore’s documentary about Columbine. Although I loved his stuff on tv, pretty often TV doesn’t translate over – see Star Trek / Lost in Space – or more to the point don't – but this was fantastic. I laughed, I cried. It made me so angry, but so happy that he made it. Its a pretty serious message and certainly a timely one, but presented in such n accessible and engaging way. Moore's really just a smarter Homer Simpson – at least thats how he presents himself.
I saw the Minority Report. Special effects, Tom Cruise and K Dick aside its basically a story about pre-emptive attacks and whether we should carry them out. The moral is by pre-empting such attacks we create them in the first place. Nice ethic. Shit film. But I kinda liked Lost in Space, in a Matt Le Blanc's doing a movie kind of way.
I watched 28 Days Later on the weekend. Man, that film has nervous energy like a monkey on Crack. Crazy interesting twist to the genre with the zombies not being the undead ala Romero, but instead just people infected by some sort of ebola like pure rage which outbreaks when some bleeding heart environmentalists try and save the world by setting the infected lab animals free. Made me laugh. But scared me.
Oh, but I also saw this Spanish movie called Talk to Her. Was a stunningly beautiful movie. Theres this guy in it who is kinda retarded but I did'nt really realise because I think you needed to speak spanish too work that out. Which I don't. Anyway, there is this beautiful comatose woman in the hospital that he takes care of her, The retarded guy, and she falls pregnant. Of course everyone accuses him, and as it turns out it was him, but its weird because he's actually really nice. Anyway, theres this other guy in it – who's actually the main guy, He's from Argentina and thats a really big thing in Spain – he like a stranger, and he's in love with this bull fighter, who's a woman, or he used to be and now I think she's dead, or something, and theres this other scene with a huge vagina. Look I realise this sounds completely weird, but it was great. It was the most non terror, non post apocalyptic, non fearful film I can recall seeing in years. Years and years.
I think we should continue. Protests are starting to build: http://911review.org/brad.com/archives/bush-didit/bush-didit-9-11.html http://itshappened.livejournal.com/
Edging closer to war. Drifting further from finding the perpetrators.
Seriously, are you kidding?? Are you not reading the papers?? Bush has stated that there is no question of Iraq's al-Qaida ties and that you can't distinguish between al-Qaida and Saddam. 9/25/02 On August 26, 2002, Cheney said "there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/ http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/08/le.00.html Cheney and Rice have told us repeatedly that Saddam is trying to enrich uranium and build nuclear weapons. Why don't you believe these people. If you dont believe your own government then spend some time at Iraq watch. http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/WH/wh-cheney-cnn-03-24-02.htm http://www.iraqwatch.org/wmd/index.html
And what about Scott Ritter then. He is a former weapons inspector and like Blix he throws serious doubts on the official story. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2247600.stm
Read between the lines, As the article you just posted states Ritter is “no stranger to controversy”, he got into all sorts of “confrontations” and has accused the US and UK of making mistakes in their previous strikes against Iraq.
To some extent, I can kind of see where you're coming from, But don't you find something creepy in the term 'anticipatory self-defense?' http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa091011a.htm
What I find creepy is that all of you are so brainwashed by university education and hippy parents that you can't even conceive that there are people outside this country that want us dead. Was 9/11 not enough? How many times do we need to be attacked? Im not concerned because I know that you are a minority, but i'm also distressed that you could all be so deluded.
What I find creepy is that when you are watching Fox, you're Tevoing CNN, and then feel like you are getting a complete picture. Are you honestly saying that we should go to war?
It not for me to say we should, but i'm not supporting that we continue to lay down and be attacked. Im also confident that if the United States IS forced to go to war, because Saddam wont comply with weapons inspections, then the outcome of a would be quick. Iraq's military capacity has been decimated by a decade of war with Iran and a decade of sanctions. Their Military machine is already broken and Saddam is hated in Iraq. He kills and tortures his own people!!!!! The US will be treated as liberators and Saddam's overthrow will result in the spread of peace and freedom.
Do you honestly believe what the NYTimes, Washington Post or whatever Democrat, left wing newspaper or photocopy left on your windscreen is telling you? That Bin Laden is either innocent or dead, that Iraq is not a threat. Is that a risk you're prepared to take?
But Triple, Don't you think thats what the terrorists want? For us to invade them? To fall into Afghanistan, the same military quicksand that felled the USSR.
Maybe so, but what you and they overlook is that the fact that our country is set up for war. We make money out of it. We produce jets, missiles, tanks, mines, humvees, bombs, guns and bullets and a war creates a huge consumer demand for these products. Then, once everything is destroyed, and the countries are on their knees, we will rebuilt the shit out of them. US construction contractors will milk billions out of Iraq and Afghanistan just as the security contractors are doing now. They wont have any money to pay us of course, but thats ok we'll accept oil.
As the saying goes, the first victim in a war is the truth. With this in mind i'm trying to look at the “truth” that is being reported and discover ways of getting more accurate information.
ReplyDeleteSpecifically I have gone back and mined the headlines from the time of the attacks last year in the hopes that some news was published before the reporting stabilised into the same groove it seems to now be in. I have put all the images in a folder my website: rachelpersephone.com/hidden/otherstuff.html
Im really concerned about this.
ReplyDeleteSo much of news media is leaning towards war. It seems completely inevitable.
Perhaps so, but we are a reluctant opponent. We did not begin this war. We were brutally attacked. Repeatedly. We can't simply turn the other cheek.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but don't you think these attacks were a response to perceived U.S cultural Imperialism in the Middle East and elsewhere? That is certainly what the perpetrators claim. In their eyes they are defending themselves.
ReplyDeleteLatanaka, I really tire of the US self hating that is expressed in comments like yours. Iv'e always been pretty left leaning but i'm not prepared to lay down and say the attacks on NY and Washington were our own fault. That is simply not the case and to suggest that is totally offensive to me.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if I offended you, but firstly its not self hating because i'm not a US citizen and secondly, I don't hate the US, I just think its worth looking at these attacks in a broader context. Simply suggesting that “they” started it brings no insight and understanding into a complex situation. We should be looking into the history or US Arab relations: our support of dictators such as Mubarak, the Saudi Royalty and even Saddam up until recently, as well as our unconditional support of Israel, our exploitation and exacerbation of conflicts in that region such as selling arms to both Iran and Iraq during their war against each other.
ReplyDeleteLike all countries, the US plays a complex game of international politics, one that I don't always agree with, but one that has made us a respected world leader. With all due respect Latanaka, your justification is total bullshit. If Arabs don't like their leaders, they should attack them, not US!
ReplyDeleteAs much as I would like to weight in on this argument, i'm also aware that this same discussion is being had around every lounge room, bar, cafe, water cooler and television as well as on thousands of sites and forums across the Internet. For the sake of our goals, can we put these differences aside and keep discussion to how to solve the Darkest Puzzle??
ReplyDeleteRa-punzzle – what are you talking about? This discussion IS FUNDAMENTAL to solving the Darkest Puzzle!!!!
ReplyDeleteOK, I see what you are saying, but can we then keep our comments based on evidence and clues? Not on personal opinion. Keep it objective rather than subjective? Please?
ReplyDeleteI have to say I totally agree with Latanaka here. Furthermore, what do you mean keep it objective??? Terrorism is a subjective act. And all of the media and “clues” ARE subjective. There is no hard evidence – no truth, no objective reality. Thats what your own first post on this discussion was all about
ReplyDeleteWell, ok. But this again raises the issue again of where we should get out information from. If we cannot trust what the news media or politicians tell us – we have nothing to go on.
ReplyDeleteI watched the 9/11 film again this week to see if I could spot anything new. I figure being a doco and all.
ReplyDeleteThose interviews with the firemen talking about “explosions” struck me.
Is that the French Film? Thats sad.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about those firemen. I'm thinking about how they said it was explosions because they had no other way to explain it. No one does. Planes have never flown into building causing them to fall like that before. They are kind of only able to explain it in terms they already know.
ReplyDeleteWell, thats true of all of us is'nt it?
ReplyDeleteI read a weird review on that film:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jammersreviews.com/articles/tv/9-11.php
“Strange as it is to say, 9/11's story is structured a lot like conventional fictional disaster movies, making one sense that maybe there's a reason why the fiction films rarely deviate from that formula.”
Its goes on but it got me thinking, wasn't the whole of 9/11 structured like a disaster film??
You/they are just proving my point. We don't have any actual context for such an attack but so much Hollywood material to work from.
ReplyDeleteI found an article by about this kind of thing just after the attacks. The author says that we need to get to a point where they don't say, this sort of thing shouldn’t happen here, to this sort of thing shouldnt happen anywhere. It kind of struck me as to how many times our country has bombed others. We have been in a perpetual war since Pearl Harbour.
ReplyDeletehttp://web.mit.edu/cms/reconstructions/interpretations/desertreal.html
I Just saw Michael Moore’s documentary about Columbine. Although I loved his stuff on tv, pretty often TV doesn’t translate over – see Star Trek / Lost in Space – or more to the point don't – but this was fantastic. I laughed, I cried. It made me so angry, but so happy that he made it. Its a pretty serious message and certainly a timely one, but presented in such n accessible and engaging way. Moore's really just a smarter Homer Simpson – at least thats how he presents himself.
ReplyDeleteI saw the Minority Report. Special effects, Tom Cruise and K Dick aside its basically a story about pre-emptive attacks and whether we should carry them out. The moral is by pre-empting such attacks we create them in the first place. Nice ethic. Shit film. But I kinda liked Lost in Space, in a Matt Le Blanc's doing a movie kind of way.
ReplyDeleteI watched 28 Days Later on the weekend. Man, that film has nervous energy like a monkey on Crack. Crazy interesting twist to the genre with the zombies not being the undead ala Romero, but instead just people infected by some sort of ebola like pure rage which outbreaks when some bleeding heart environmentalists try and save the world by setting the infected lab animals free. Made me laugh. But scared me.
ReplyDeleteSaw Irreversible. Don't
ReplyDeleteOh, but I also saw this Spanish movie called Talk to Her. Was a stunningly beautiful movie. Theres this guy in it who is kinda retarded but I did'nt really realise because I think you needed to speak spanish too work that out. Which I don't. Anyway, there is this beautiful comatose woman in the hospital that he takes care of her, The retarded guy, and she falls pregnant. Of course everyone accuses him, and as it turns out it was him, but its weird because he's actually really nice. Anyway, theres this other guy in it – who's actually the main guy, He's from Argentina and thats a really big thing in Spain – he like a stranger, and he's in love with this bull fighter, who's a woman, or he used to be and now I think she's dead, or something, and theres this other scene with a huge vagina. Look I realise this sounds completely weird, but it was great. It was the most non terror, non post apocalyptic, non fearful film I can recall seeing in years. Years and years.
ReplyDeleteSounds great.
ReplyDeleteI need some escapism.
ReplyDeleteI know, but with all of this discussion about Iraq, I feel we have kind of left the whole 9/11 problem behind somewhere.
ReplyDelete9/11 itself is almost escapism.
ReplyDeleteNo. It really is'nt.
ReplyDeleteMy retina is burnt with planes hitting towers. Its total overkil
overkill. :)
ReplyDeleteI agree. Burnout.
ReplyDeleteUmm, Do we want to close up this shop? Personally I think I want to continue.
ReplyDeleteI think we should continue. Protests are starting to build:
ReplyDeletehttp://911review.org/brad.com/archives/bush-didit/bush-didit-9-11.html
http://itshappened.livejournal.com/
Is that our Logo?
ReplyDeleteLooks that way.
ReplyDeleteDid any one go to any of these?
ReplyDeleteI went to one in Montreal.
ReplyDeleteEdging closer to war. Drifting further from finding the perpetrators.
ReplyDeleteEdging closer to war. Drifting further from finding the perpetrators.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, are you kidding?? Are you not reading the papers??
Bush has stated that there is no question of Iraq's al-Qaida ties and that you can't distinguish between al-Qaida and Saddam. 9/25/02
On August 26, 2002, Cheney said "there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/08/le.00.html
Cheney and Rice have told us repeatedly that Saddam is trying to enrich uranium and build nuclear weapons. Why don't you believe these people. If you dont believe your own government then spend some time at Iraq watch.
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/WH/wh-cheney-cnn-03-24-02.htm
http://www.iraqwatch.org/wmd/index.html
And what about Scott Ritter then. He is a former weapons inspector and like Blix he throws serious doubts on the official story.
ReplyDeletehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2247600.stm
Read between the lines, As the article you just posted states Ritter is “no stranger to controversy”, he got into all sorts of “confrontations” and has accused the US and UK of making mistakes in their previous strikes against Iraq.
ReplyDeleteTo some extent, I can kind of see where you're coming from, But don't you find something creepy in the term 'anticipatory self-defense?'
ReplyDeletehttp://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa091011a.htm
What I find creepy is that all of you are so brainwashed by university education and hippy parents that you can't even conceive that there are people outside this country that want us dead. Was 9/11 not enough? How many times do we need to be attacked? Im not concerned because I know that you are a minority, but i'm also distressed that you could all be so deluded.
ReplyDeleteWhat I find creepy is that when you are watching Fox, you're Tevoing CNN, and then feel like you are getting a complete picture. Are you honestly saying that we should go to war?
ReplyDeleteIt not for me to say we should, but i'm not supporting that we continue to lay down and be attacked. Im also confident that if the United States IS forced to go to war, because Saddam wont comply with weapons inspections, then the outcome of a would be quick. Iraq's military capacity has been decimated by a decade of war with Iran and a decade of sanctions. Their Military machine is already broken and Saddam is hated in Iraq. He kills and tortures his own people!!!!! The US will be treated as liberators and Saddam's overthrow will result in the spread of peace and freedom.
ReplyDeleteDo you honestly believe that?
ReplyDeleteDo you honestly believe what the NYTimes, Washington Post or whatever Democrat, left wing newspaper or photocopy left on your windscreen is telling you? That Bin Laden is either innocent or dead, that Iraq is not a threat. Is that a risk you're prepared to take?
ReplyDeleteBut Triple, Don't you think thats what the terrorists want? For us to invade them? To fall into Afghanistan, the same military quicksand that felled the USSR.
ReplyDeleteMaybe so, but what you and they overlook is that the fact that our country is set up for war. We make money out of it. We produce jets, missiles, tanks, mines, humvees, bombs, guns and bullets and a war creates a huge consumer demand for these products. Then, once everything is destroyed, and the countries are on their knees, we will rebuilt the shit out of them. US construction contractors will milk billions out of Iraq and Afghanistan just as the security contractors are doing now. They wont have any money to pay us of course, but thats ok we'll accept oil.
ReplyDeleteThats super dark Triple. Is that the kind of world you want to live in. Because you are creating it.
ReplyDeleteI don't create reality by being a realist. I just deal with it.
ReplyDeleteThis is getting us nowhere. We are all just reflecting the same debate thats being held everywhere else.
ReplyDeleteI agree, we need some new information. We are just regurgitating the ideologies from both sides of politics and all sides of the press.
ReplyDeleteWe all need to talk again - find a new way forward.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that what we're doing now?
ReplyDeleteI have some ideas that I don't want to discuss here.
ReplyDeleteIntriguing!!!
ReplyDeleteHow about this Sunday night, Chatzilla again.
ReplyDeleteJust turn up if you can.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the irc network/channel?
ReplyDelete